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Playtesting thoughts on D&D 4.0

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Jul. 14th, 2008 | 10:12 am



Negatives:

1. Let's go back. Years back. A geeky high school kid is leaning forward to a group of confused and excited preteens in their first ever roleplaying game, telling them that they've just – whoops – fallen into a room of moving skeletons.

"SKELETONS!''

"OH THIS IS SO COOL!"

"Can they kill us?"

"Do they fall apart if we hit them? Do we just hit them?"

[I will note, for the record, that none of us had a clue of what we were doing, which is precisely why this campaign gives me such a warm feeling of nostalgia.]

The geeky high school kid leans forward to me. "A feeling washes over you. A feeling that if you could just remember the right hand gestures, just remember what you are doing, you can save them. Save the whole group."

Me, squeaking: "REALLY?"

"You can make them run away….."

"NO LET'S SMASH THEM!"

"You could be the hero….."

That sealed it. I would be the hero. And I was. For the first time ever.

(and then everybody yelled at me because they wanted to see what would happen if you hit skeletons, but heroes can't have everything.)

***********

What that story in mind –

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO TURNING UNDEAD?

Dudes. Dudes. Dudes. This went all the way back to basic edition, my friends. Remember? That little red box that our parents just didn't get with all the funny little dice? And what have you done with this? Ooooh. You can now push undead three squares away?

You have got to be kidding me.

What happened to all of my fancy tables (or, in 3.5, hit dice, whatever) letting me know that as a weak little 1st level cleric, sure, I can try to push back against skeletons but when a ghost shows up man I better run.

What happened to my chances of turning away the monsters of the night, of providing shelter for the weak and weary and helpless shaking at the sounds of ghosts and bumps in the night? (My fellow Ravenloft players would not recognize me in that last sentence, but that's a Ravenloft game – I have played the protective cleric before.)

This was the coolest thing ever about playing a cleric, and no, giving clerics combat oriented spells does not help. Bring it the hell back.

2. Three pages of corrections for the first edition Player's Handbook ten days after release. Not so cool. And yes, this came up in the middle of combat (with the Ghostly Guardian thing) and more yes, we had to head to the forums and frequently asked questions sections for some rule explanation. Not so cool. On a related note, I was mildly amused to note the difference between the good old days of the 80s, where either the DM would just say, "THAT'S HOW IT WORKS DUMBASS" or we'd just all sit around and yell, and now, when everybody can pop open a laptop and google away.

3. Speaking of cleric encounters…the wizard in our party was annoyed to find that yet again, wizard spells hit everyone, friend and foe alike, while my shining ghostly guardian thing that caused us so many rule problems just hit friends.

3. 'Member back in those Basic days, when Elves were like the THE most powerful race, like, ever, cause they could both use a sword and shoot off those magic missile things and nobody else could and like the only thing holding them back was that they had to get a LOT more XP to level up than anyone else did? Yeah, that. Anyway. Enough nostalgia. Couple negatives on races: 1. 4th ed has gone back to the "Elves=Legolas" thing, partly because the "Grey Elves" concept has been moved over to "Eladrin". And 2 – this will sound odd, but –

The races are almost too balanced now.

It took me awhile to figure out just what was nagging me about it, and then I realized – in the fantasy and myths that D&D pulls from the various fantastical races aren't balanced. They aren't equal, and making them this balanced and equal takes away some of that fantasy element.

4. Ranger – One of the problems in reading through the book is that I didn't have a solid feel for the difference between a fighter and a ranger – oh, sure, some of the various powers were a bit different, but that was about it, and after one game session of play with a wizard, paladin, fighter and ranger, I still didn't have a solid feel for the difference between a fighter and a ranger. I get that all of the focus on nature and tracking and cute little furry companions bored the hell out of people before, but right at the moment, I don't see a roleplaying, character reason to play a ranger, and that's sad.

5. Speaking of which, yes, yes, I get that the Warlock is supposed to replace the Bard, but here's the thing – Bards could do a lot of things other than just stir up companions in battle, and they could be incredibly fun to RP, what with singing, rhyming, stealing people's underwear, getting dimwitted fighters to believe that a conspiracy of cats was responsible for the underwear thefts…I digress again. Bards were fun. Warlocks? Dull, and plus, needing to run around and stand next to fellow players in combat? Not fun.

6. Equipment list. This was inexplicably Made of Fail. While putting together two characters (the cleric and a backup rogue in case the cleric didn't work out) I kept coming across all kinds of items that I wanted to purchase, and couldn't. Like, not selecting something at random, boots. Normal clothing – you can buy fine clothing easily enough, but not normal stuff, which is a problem if your clothes just got burnt off by a dragon and you urgently need a plain tunic. (Almost all D&D worlds are shockingly undersupplied by Targets.) A mirror. I realize that some of the old equipment lists got a bit too lengthy, but this went the other way. On a very related note: weapons. Far too many weapons have a "why should I buy this" factor, given that they do the identical damage/range as a cheaper, lighter weapon.

Positives:

1. Major kudos for finally putting all of the cleric spells (or, as they're called now, At Will, Daily, blah, blah) under the "Cleric" class listing, the Wizard spells under the "Wizard" class listing, and so on. YAY. This was absolutely the best organized Player's Handbook ever, which is tremendously helpful when you are trying to look things up in the middle of combat.

2. Art. Very nice throughout the book, and a real plus.

3. Combat. I'm surprised to find myself listing this as a plus, since for the most part, I'm not much for combat. That's an understatement. In LARPS I often walked away from combat even if my character might want to join in. But I have to say, 4th edition has done a nice job with making combat a lot more fun than usual – it has an almost board game feel to it in some ways, if you're into board games (which I am) and a definite video game feel to it, with a setup designed for strategy and thinking and fun stuff. Admittedly I could see a vicious sort of DM taking advantage of this…

4. Dragonborn are cool. It's like the next best thing to playing a dragon.

5. Finally, we don't all have to stand around and shield the first level wizard on the hopes she might be useful later….

Mixed:

1. This was the single most effective cleric I've ever had in a combat situation – partly because I've never bothered to create combat focused, battle ready clerics before since combat never held a major interest for me, and mostly because clerics previously had almost no useful combat spells. I have to admit that getting to be involved and effective in combat, as a cleric, was thrilling.

But the counter to this is major – the cleric spells this time around focus on combat, so that all of the other cool things clerics could do, in roleplay seem lessened. Which means that my intended concept, a rather scholarly sort of cleric who was going to be a little out of her head once taken out of her university settings….flopped. Just flopped. I had fun, but, had to somewhat change the character concept mid session. I suspect, as I get a better feel for the game (and my new gaming group) this will change. But honestly, I don't feel that my cleric is a cleric but rather a fighter who can summon ghosts and things.

2. That combat focus in the book plays through in game as well – with even social encounters ended up, in one case, playing like a combat round, when we were attempting to gain access to an elven embassy.

3. Skills: Massive, massive improvement in selecting skills/adding skill points for new characters – this was, hands down, the easiest time I've ever had selecting/calculating skill points. Bravo. Nice streamlining of said skills too – and thank you to whoever insisted on eliminating both "Search" and "Spot" skills. I also, at first glance, loved the simplicity of just adding one point per skill per level…

….and then I took another look at those skills, and rethought that last thought.

Because, honestly, it doesn't make sense for some characters to increase skill points (or ranks, whatever) with ever skill in every level. To take the most obvious, Acrobatics – are we really expected to believe that our scholarly wizards are also learning a trapeze act along the way? Or that my generally good cleric is going to be learning a lot about Thievery? And yes, sure, a DM can just up the difficulty challenge rating to keep up ("Well, usually, stealing that book would have a skill check of 15, but since you're a freaking 15th level wizard and I have to think that you aren't good at this, I'm upping it to 30"), but that still begs the question as to why that character has that skill at all. I get the simplicity; I just wonder about the character building dynamics behind it.

And then, too, what if you wanted to play a ranger who spends her spare time carving stone? The simplicity here also makes it less flexible.

End result:

Well, I had fun -- but I don't think I'll ever lose my nostalgia for earlier versions of D&D.

Also, I miss the monk class.

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Comments {31}

Wesley Rundell

(no subject)

from: [info]maxymyllyn
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 02:25 pm (UTC)
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Warlocks? Really?

Sigh.

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Mari Ness

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from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
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Actually, I mistyped there -- the class I find kinda pointless is Warlord -- the Warlock class is a magical fighting dude that I haven't seen in action yet or focused on much, so I can't say much about it.

However, new criticism! Warlock and Warlord sound waaaaayyyyyy too much alike!

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Wesley Rundell

(no subject)

from: [info]maxymyllyn
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 02:46 pm (UTC)
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Well, also, Warlock is a major class in World of Warcraft. It's a keen idea, but throwing it into the D&D environment still sounds messy.

Please tell me you still have uses for multiple types of dice.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 03:20 pm (UTC)
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The focus is on d20, but I did roll a d8 and a d6 a few times during the combat encounter. (That hapless d12 still seems left out....)

It did, hwoever, feel weird to create two characters (I created a rogue for a backup character) without rolling any dice. Any. Dice. It just felt wrong. More fair and balanced, I'm sure, but wrong -- not to mention robbing you of the chance to get that rare character with two or more 18 starting stats...

As far as Warlock goes -- I'm sure its presence here is partly because of World of Warcraft, but also to skip over that inevitable fighter/wizard multiclass problem that D&D has had since its earliest days when it tried to avoid the problem by calling it "elf". I didn't really look at the class in depth much, but I'll see how it plays out. The Warlord, though, kinda sucks as a class, and I wish they'd just stuck with the Bard.

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Rich

(no subject)

from: [info]dragonbane
date: Jul. 15th, 2008 03:00 am (UTC)
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And lord knows World of Warcraft invented the term Warlock. Also, World.

Save me from MMO players. Sheesh.

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(no subject)

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 15th, 2008 06:39 am (UTC)
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No, but I have yet to see the Warlocks as prominently featured in *any* RPG or MMORPG as they have been in WoW. I somehow doubt the worlds largest MMORPG didn't even cross the minds of the creators of the 4th edition.

Save me from pretentious e-peen slingers who find their testosterone online. Sheesh.

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Wesley Rundell

(no subject)

from: [info]maxymyllyn
date: Jul. 15th, 2008 06:49 am (UTC)
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The above was me btw. Didn't mean to tack that on as anon. :)

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Rich

(no subject)

from: [info]dragonbane
date: Jul. 15th, 2008 12:57 pm (UTC)
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Warlock joined the ranks of D&D supplemental Base Classes in 2004 with the release of the Complete Arcane book. Warlock by definition is a male Witch, one who dabbles with infernal forces. I'd like to introduce you to the possibility that they had the Salem Witch Trials in mind, as did WoW.

Just to see if your theory had ANY credence, I decided to check Wikipedia to see if their warlock entry mentioned WoW. Sadly, it does not, so the theory that WoW has taken over the modern definition of Warlock is shaky at best.

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Wesley Rundell

(no subject)

from: [info]maxymyllyn
date: Jul. 20th, 2008 08:08 am (UTC)
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Heh, didn't get the notify on this one, but I was curious if it got a response.

I see that you're about a year older than me - really, my original *sigh* was directed at the direction the game took from when I started playing it - when I was around 10. When second edition came out, the game started to become dumbed down and a little more fragmented than I cared for.

But, by the way, WoW launched it's Alpha and closed Beta in 2003, and Launched officially in November of 2004. The fact that the base classes had Warlock added in 2004 doesn't refute my point that I believe the current incarnation of D&D is now influenced by the children it spawned - MMORPGS and the like.

Looking at the spell listings for a Warlock - Eldrich Blast, Multiple Drain and Damage Over Time Spells, Devils Sight, etc., etc. - and I could draw a line between WoW and D&D's version. Even the limitations and areas of effect are damn near identical. Also, from what I've researched, Warlocks became a base class heavily documented in 4th edition - and this isn't the first time this comparison has been made.

I'm not really sure what you have against online RPG's, but I don't think it's an unfair correlation to make, when I count no less than 6 different spells with direct cause, effect, and even duration correlations between D&D and WoW.

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A photographic memory but with a stuck lens cover

(no subject)

from: [info]kellirose1313
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 04:09 pm (UTC)
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And yet further reason for me to keep my games at 3 & 3.5 until I darn well feel like it.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 04:10 pm (UTC)
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I'm still in a 3.5 game myself via webcam, but my new local gaming group is doing 4.0, so I went along with them.

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Frank Di Vincenzo

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from: [info]lordsnotrag
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 04:57 pm (UTC)
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I remember when I used to get to game... *sigh*

At least it sounds like you're having fun in your new home town. :)

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 09:22 pm (UTC)
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I have to say that this is the fastest I have ever found a gaming group, although it helped to have a friend in the area....

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Meander

(no subject)

from: [info]meandering
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 05:17 pm (UTC)
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Sadly, in making the game more dynamic and "video game" like they reduce the ability to emphasize role-playing. *sigh*

Monks will be coming out at some point though.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 09:24 pm (UTC)
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We actually did some roleplaying, although I missed my main chance to do a combat oriented RP -- caused by me not thinking, not the game system, I have to say. And this GM does give XP for roleplaying -- I'd just never really encountered the "turn the main social goal of the session into a social skill challenge" before -- occasional skill rolls, sure, but not at that level.

Good to hear about the monks. They've never really been able to kill the popularity of that class, have they?

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Meander

(no subject)

from: [info]meandering
date: Jul. 14th, 2008 10:55 pm (UTC)
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As long as kids like kung-fu, there will be monks. Besides, with the way they've structured the classes and powers, I can definitely see how monks could be terribly spiff.

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A Machine which Converts Pepsi into Theorems

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from: [info]stronae
date: Jul. 15th, 2008 12:15 am (UTC)
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Yeah, I just plain didn't really understand the necessity of Warlord vs. Fighter... from my PoV, the Fighter should *become* a Warlord after achieving something truly badass... or 20th level... or whatever.

And yeah, the Warlock/Warlord homophonia is with me also. They had an easily avoidable problem that they failed to avoid. No earthly clue why.

I'm glad to hear combat was more fun... if there's one thing I totally need from a D&D system right now, it's streamlined combat. I *hate* having to take an hour for a simple combat. I also recall they simplified the actions, which will help. I couldn't for the life of me keep all the 3rd ed action types straight in my head, and they opened the door for far too many player vs. DM arguments there.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 15th, 2008 12:37 am (UTC)
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They could, you know, call the Warlord "Bard." Just a thought :) Or, as you suggest, make the Warlord some sort of prestige class. (Or, as it's now called, "paragon path." As it is -- it's a class that provides pretty limited roleplaying and not a lot of flexibility == I mean, compared to what you can do with a fighter -- fun loving adventurer, naive young kid, emotionally destroyed person out for revenge -- and that's just off the top of my head. The Warlord doesn't give you that roleplaying flexibility, and it takes away the pure fun that the bard could be (I never played bards as leaders, thus the fun.) The attempt is there to have the Warlord be a sort of Cleric/Fighter cross, but since the system also makes clerics a lot more combat oriented, that attempt seems wasted.

I've taken three hours or more for combat. AUUGH. AUUGH. AUUGH. Often, the start of combat is the signal for me to go and read a book. This time, combat was a lot smoother, and it was actually fun, even with a "Um -- can we check how that thing works again? Ok, that's not clear -- anything in the FAQ or corrections?" bit.

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Katelynn

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from: [info]indigochildkate
date: Jul. 15th, 2008 05:37 am (UTC)
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What about HEALING. You know, the main reason for having a cleric? My favorite character was my Dwarf Cleric who specialized in healing, well now if I cure light wounds on you, it isn't about MY ability as a healer, you just use one of your second winds or whatever. That was a real let-down as far as classes go.

And I agree with almost everything you said about classes. Where is Monk? And what is up with the whole leader / defender thing? And what about my 3x3 alignment grid?! The alignments were epic fail, imho.

Great assessment, btw.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 16th, 2008 02:11 pm (UTC)
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AUUGH! My computer ate to my reply to this. Trying again.

As long as I'm pursuing this exercise in nostalgia, I will note that this is an improvement over Basic edition, where clerics got one chance per day to heal everyone very, very slightly. It continues the going trend of making characters more difficult to kill. The mortality rate for starting characters in Basic and 1st edition AD&D was startlingly high. (Which resulted in several campaigns giving up the concept of 1st level characters and just starting everyone at 4th to 6th.)

Which leads to another thing, which I hadn't thought about until just now -- all of this healing/healing surges/second wind and so on makes characters considerably more difficult to kill. This has its good points -- losing a character is always tough -- but one major negative: if you know it's hard for your character to die, you'll rush into combat, or take risks that your character really wouldn't take. That can add an element of fun, of course -- and adds to the video game feel -- but I can see the drawbacks, especially if for some reason you've got a twink in the group.

And don't get me started on the fact that now, we had to have one player spend the entire encounter calculating and recalculating hit points and temp hit points for all five us of given that with healing and healing surges and temp hit points and everything the hit points were fluctuating up and down each freaking round. Great if you're into math, I guess.

Anyway, this is all rambling to say that you're right.

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Ubiquitous Bob

(no subject)

from: [info]jazzhandshimmer
date: Jul. 16th, 2008 08:28 am (UTC)
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One thing to add to this list, Mari? Coming from the other side of the screen, and being a DM? 4E is /beautiful/. Wizards finally succeeded in making a game that's not a headache to DM. You can put, literally, as much or as little effort into DMing as you please. Need to build some encounters quickly? Take an XP total, choose monsters, go. Do this a couple times, and you get a good feel for how different monsters interact and synergize.

Want to reward RP with XP, but not too sure if you're giving too much for the level? Hey, look! Quest XP and Skill Challenge XP charts! Rather than eyeballing, at best, or flat out refusing, at worst, to reward thinking a way out of an encounter rather than solving it with violence has methods for it!

Oh, and loot packages. Thank the Writers for Loot Packages. Clear cut /suggestions/ for how much loot the system /expects/ you to put in a given level, rather than making it some vaguely esoteric system that required a math and philosophy degree to figure out.

This is the reason I have full confidence that 4E will overtake even the staunchest 3.5E holdouts. Because once you have DMed 4E? Going back to 3.5E /hurts/. I know. I'm doing it, because I want to fininsh my game.

As for crafting and other skills? From what the game lacks to describe, one can infer that a character can, with time and effort, make anything the PC and the DM agree is feasible. That's it. No rules for repairing clothing, or making armor. The Skills that exist, exist only because they are needed for system mechanics. Also, for spells that aren't combat oriented, you have Rituals. Look them up. They're nice. And as a Cleric, you automatically have a Ritual Book, and some Rituals. You and the Wizard are the two natural Ritual casters. There's the nice utility spells.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the Healing Surge mechanic, and I honestly kind of like it better. Clerics /are/ better healers (they add their Wisdom mod to all healing their Prayers cause... neither the Warlord or Artificer (arcane leader released in Dragon as a playtest) heal that well). Also a lot of the Clerics powers boost their healing powers, and the Clerics get more powers that heal.

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Ubiquitous Bob

(no subject)

from: [info]jazzhandshimmer
date: Jul. 16th, 2008 08:31 am (UTC)
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Thing I forgot to add... The reason I like Healing Surges? You don't need higher level powers to heal as you advance in level. Healing Surges automatically scale per level because they are always one quarter of your max Hit Points. Plus some, if you're a Dragonborn.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 16th, 2008 02:17 pm (UTC)
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Yeah, but -- the main negative I see is that they can encourage players to take risks and/or enter combat that they probably wouldn't/shouldn't enter. We'll see how this plays out -- my current group doesn't appear to be major risk takers or twinks.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Jul. 16th, 2008 02:16 pm (UTC)
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I can see the pluses to the "make life easier for the DM" argument -- although remember, you're talking to someone that happily put together intricate little/large dungeons in the good old Basic/Expert days when it was damn unclear what any given monster would do with any given character.... The loot packages are great -- Dragon magazine had something about that years and years back, but of course you had to be reading/subscribing to Dragon magazine to find out about that in those pre internet days. Wow. I feel so old....

The Ritual book thing, btw, appears to be in the hands of the DM. I am a cleric and I don't have one yet because I don't have the money, and after the first gaming session I still don't have the money. This is what happens when you come up with a concept for a scholarly investigative cleric, I guess.

And for the record, I still know a few people who are still playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, 1st ed -- the one that came out in the early 80s. So, I suspect those 3.5 holdouts are going to linger....

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Ubiquitous Bob

(no subject)

from: [info]jazzhandshimmer
date: Jul. 16th, 2008 06:00 pm (UTC)
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There's always a few. But they're the exception, not the norm. My prediction goes to the norm.

And as a Cleric, you /start/ with a Ritual book, and two rituals. One is Gentle Repose, and you get another of first level of your choice. For free. Casting them is another situation, but you should have two? It's a class feature.

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Athena Keating-Thomas

(no subject)

from: [info]athenakt
date: Aug. 1st, 2008 01:42 am (UTC)
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Agreed with you on the good/bad aspects; you expressed them quite nicely!

I'm looking forward to the online toys for D&D; it may bring about lots of change in the game itself where GMs can find players the world over and perhaps use it to run games -GASP- other than D&D. If not, it'll bring about new computer toys to play with for a while. ;)

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Aug. 5th, 2008 04:23 am (UTC)
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I doubt I'll do this online -- a) far too many people are still trying to pull me into WoW or City of Heroes, and b) my once a week D&D game is satisfying that geek need, at least for now...

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Athena Keating-Thomas

(no subject)

from: [info]athenakt
date: Aug. 5th, 2008 09:11 pm (UTC)
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Don't forget. WoW men have horribly bulky arms and legs while CoX has lots of wonderful eye candy. ;)

Admittedly if you choose the "Huge" option for size, the CoX guys can be made horribly bulky as well, but I like my guys nice and slender, so I never choose that.

Which also prompts me to mention that the character generator is sometimes addicting and gives lots of leeway in making a wide array of changes whereas the character generator in WoW is rather basic. And WoW clothes are often terrible looking.

I still have a number of characters on WoW I'll play again someday, but for now I'm on CoX.

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Mari Ness

(no subject)

from: [info]mariness
date: Aug. 5th, 2008 09:21 pm (UTC)
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So, basically your advice is to choose an MMO based on the size of digital butts?

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Athena Keating-Thomas

(no subject)

from: [info]athenakt
date: Aug. 6th, 2008 11:47 pm (UTC)
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Not ONLY for their digital butts, but they help.

Seriously though- WoW does give you lots and lots of abilities when playing your character and CoX has fewer. However- and this is the important however- I have come to love gaming with a TEAM. Just regular quest type missions which are located in instances where the only people there are your team and the baddies your either killing (Villains) or arresting (Heroes). When I'm on a team (and I frequently lead them myself which has given me a great confidence boost as I'm able to do so capably) I can set the difficulty for missions at their highest and the best teams overcome the challenge wonderfully, and with tons of XP and loot. ;)

In WoW, teaming out in the wide world happens too, but there are tons of times you'll be out to defeat person X only to find there's a line of teams and individuals waiting to do so. Missions also work much differently. There's just something that warms my heart when a tank herds a group of 20 baddies towards the team, and the Area of Effect powers kick in, and a field of damage numbers floats to the heavens. And many variations of that theme which I can go on and on about and bore you to death. ;)

WoW has dungeons and the like- I'll probably greatly enjoy those when the next WoW expansion comes out and I come back to try it out. But one can't really level on dungeons alone. Solo Questing just isn't as fun for me anymore.

You should realize how important these points are to me since I'm typing all of this in your terrible grey text UI on LJ. ;) *snugs*

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Athena Keating-Thomas

(no subject)

from: [info]athenakt
date: Aug. 6th, 2008 11:49 pm (UTC)
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Gasp! A typo! your = you're

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